Why Ratings and Reviews Don’t Matter Anymore! (sort of)

This post might ruffle some feathers so I’m gonna be on my best behavior so as not to piss off the jury of my peers.

Here’s my observation: the ratings/reviews on Amazon are absolutely irrelevant. I see you over there eyeing me suspiciously and whittling a piece of driftwood to resemble a pretty spectacular shiv while mumbling, “Tread carefully, Princess Buttercup.”

As a quick aside, yes, I do respond to Buttercup. No, I won’t tell you why.

as you wish

We hear this all the time: “If you want to help my new book get off the ground, please consider leaving a review on Amazon.” Shit, I do the same thing because to a certain degree (here I’m already going to contradict my earlier thesis, they don’t call me Flip-Flop Buttercup for no reason–but no, I’m still not going to tell you the reason. Stop asking.) reviews lend a degree of social proof. They are that friendly recommendation that says, “This thing right here? Yeah, it’s the shit.” And if that opinion is coming from somebody you trust, Huzzah! You’re likely to pick up the book and give it a shot.

But what if it’s from an untrustworthy source such as… a person on the internet who you’ve never ever even met? Does that opinion matter? Does it carry any weight?

Sure, to an extent. If it’s a well thought out, unbiased critique of the work in question, then absolutely the review can be helpful. If it’s a simple gush-fest of–

“OH MY GOD, I ADORE THIS AND I WANT TO SNEAK INTO THE AUTHOR’S BEDROOM AT NIGHT AND STEAL HIS/HER PILLOW JUST SO I CAN FALL ASLEEP WITH THEIR SWEET MUSK FILLING MY NOSTRILS!”

–Then not so much.

So here’s the problem, I’m cruising around Amazon looking for some sicky gnar gnar new books to check out and give a thorough eye molestation to, and the ratings are so lopsided that they actually impart a negative amount of information.

*This is the part where I’m probably gonna piss off a few people*

pissing off

In particular, the books with the most lopsided ratings tend to be from self-published authors. What do I mean by this? Well, self-published authors, whether they be fairly popular, or not, tend to have significantly higher ratings than their traditionally published brethren.

Before we get into the why and the how, I want to substantiate this claim with some examples. I spent a little bit of time this morning compiling some datas that I now want to throw in your face. Incoming!

First, I googled top 100 science fiction books of all time. What pops up reads as a who’s who of sci-fi literary mastery. So I just went down the list, took the top 12 titles and searched their Amazon rating to get a baseline. Here we go:

Fahrenheit 451 – 4.2 stars

Ender’s Game – 4.5

Dune – 4.5

1984 – 4.5

Neuromancer – 4.0

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep – 4.2

Brave New World – 4.2

War of the Worlds – 4.3

Stranger in a Strange Land – 4.0

Starship Storm Troopers – 4.4

Snow Crash – 4.1

The Left Hand of Darkness – 4.4

Average Rating 4.2

Okay, so pinnacles of the genre have an average rating of 4.2. That’s not so bad, but there is room for improvement.

Next, I went and took the Hugo winners for Best Novel in the past six years. Take a gander below.

Ancillary Justice – 4.2

Equoid – 4.3

Red Shirts – 3.8

Among Others – 3.7

Black Out/All Clear – 3.3

The City & The City – 3.8

The Windup Girl – 3.9

Average Rating – 3.8

Holy 3 star, Batman. This seems low, doesn’t it? Well, no… actually not so much. These books on average score a half-star less than their all-time perennial classic cousins. Which isn’t so terribly far away all things considered.

Now, does it matter that these books are scoring a full star below the holy grail of 5? Nah, not really, because there is an internal consistency among them. Based on these numbers we would expect to see the average “good, perhaps even great” book to rate about 3.2 stars.

But now, let’s introduce some self-publishers into the mix and see how things get all wonkified. Now, I just grabbed some big named self-publishers off the top of my head and went to their author page on Amazon and simply scrolled through the ratings of their most popular books. On average, these books have very solid ratings with over 100 reviewers, but there are certainly some outliers with less. We’ll talk about this later and why it matters.

So, if you’ve been around the self-publishing world for any length of time you’ve probably heard of Johnny B. Truant and Sean Platt (and David Wright who I think might be my all-time favorite curmudgeon). They host a self-publishing podcast that is incredibly popular and jam packed full of actionable advice. If you’re serious about self-publishing you should probably go give them a listen.

spp

Anyways, here are the numbers for their 8 most popular books:

Invasion – 4.4

Contact – 4.6

Robot Proletariat – 4.8

The Beam Season 1 – 4.8

The Beam Season 2 – 4.9

Dream Engine – 4.8

Axis of Aaron – 4.6

Namaste – 4.8

Average Rating: 4.6

Yikes! These guys are consistently scoring a half-star higher than the All-Time Best of the Best Books of the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Genre, and nearly a full star higher than the Hugo awards (which the argument could be made are to be considered some of the best books of their respective years).

Of these books I’ve read The Beam Season One and Robot Proletariat, and you know what, they were both pretty good. They were well written with an engaging story line. I enjoyed them, but you’ll never convince me they are a half-star better than Neuromancer, or Snow Crash, or Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.

You can try, but I’m just gonna jam my fingers in my ears and start singing lalalalalala, I can’t hear you. What can I say, I’m a childish debater.

otter

Let’s move onto the next huge Indie name, Dannika Dark. Dannika writes YA and she’s so uber-popular it sickens me. But that’s just the jealousy talking, I’m sure she’s actually very talented.

*Whoosh, ziff, bang!*

Future Anthony here to clean up Past Anthony’s stupid messes! Turns out a wee-bit more research would’ve revealed that Dannika does NOT write YA. In fact, her website explicitly says as much. That’s what I get for skimming! Anyhow, my point still stands. Dannika has a crazy awesome average rating. Thanks to Dannika herself for setting me straight!

*back to the regularly scheduled program*

Let’s take a look at the ratings for her most popular series.

Seven Years – 4.4

Sterling – 4.1

Four Days – 4.9

Three Hours – 4.9

Twist – 4.7

Shine – 4.9

Average Rating: 4.65

Not as good as Johnny and Sean, but still significantly higher than the Hugo Award winners and the All-Time Bestselling SFF. Then again, this is YA, so perhaps it would be more fair to rank it against its genre peers?

For the sake of fairness, let’s compare it against The Hunger Games.

Hunger Games – 4.6

Catching Fire – 4.7

Mocking Jay – 4.3

Average Rating – 4.5

Boom, take that Suzanne Collins you wanna-be hack. Dannika’s got your number–somebody get Ms. Dark a seven figure movie contract, STAT! Then again, that’s only pulling from a sample size of three, which isn’t terribly significant. Hm… okay, let’s see how Dannika stacks up against another little known lady…

J.K. Rowling and the Hairy Clay Potter.

Sorceror’s Stone – 4.8

Chamber of Secrets – 4.7

Goblet of Fire – 4.8

Order of Phoenix – 4.8

Azkabhan – 4.7

Half Blood Prince – 4.4

Deathly Hallows – 4.7

Average Rating – 4.7

Which is pretty much what you would expect for the best selling book about a hairy gardener ever! But, geez, even then it was actually a pretty close match. Rowling only edged out Dark by .05. That’s a slim margin no matter how you slice it.

Is Dark’s series really as good as The Hunger Games? Possibly. Is it almost as good as Harry Potter? Eh.. possibly, but boy I would be surprised.

So, what the hell is going on here? How are self-published authors pulling in such ginormous numbers? Are they cheating? Did they sell their bodies to the Rating Gods in exchange for all those spiky five star reviews?

Maybe? But I think it’s something a little less sinister then that.

There’s a couple things happening here. First, self-published authors recognize the value of good reviews and go waaaay out of their way to field willing reviewers, often reaching out personally to said people. By comparison, when was the last time you got an email from J.K Rowling asking you to review her upcoming book?

Unless you’re secretly a big named newspaper or literary journal simply pretending to be a human in an attempt to infiltrate my blog, then you’ve probably never received jack squat from J.K. And this is important because we have a hard time saying “no” to people we know.

koala

An even harder time saying bad things to, or about, them.

I’ve struggled with the same thing. An author asks me to review their book and because they’ve personally reached out to me, I feel this subconscious pressure to pull my punches and give a slightly better review/rating than I normally would.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assume I’m not the only one doing this. So that’s one part of the rating inflation, but there’s a bit more to it than that.

Self-published authors have learned they need to be their own marketing team and they’ve figured out some great ways of doing this starting with email lists/newsletters. This is an awesome way of corralling the people who really love your writing and opening an avenue of communication with them. With the email list an author can send out notifications whenever their next book is dropping. They can send free deals, and short stories, and puppies, and pretty much whatever you can fit into a digital inbox.

This personal connection with the reader goes a long, long ways and we see the effects of it in the startlingly high ratings these authors are pulling in. Let me throw out an example of a book I saw go live the other day and how the author used his preexisting fan base to astounding effect.

Michael Bunker released his book Brother, Frankenstein just a couple days ago. It already has 99 reviews. I think it ended it’s first day with 97 or 98 reviews. How many of those are 5 stars? 88. Fresh out of the gates, less than a week old, and Brother, Frankenstein has nearly a hundred reviews and a 4.9 average.

Whoa. Let that sink in. Michael Bunker used his readership base to do something absolutely impressive.

Now, please don’t interpret me pointing this out as any sort of hate against these other authors (in fact, I picked up a copy of Brother, Frankenstein ’cause I think Bunker is a talented writer and a good storyteller. I’m intrigued to see what all the hype is about!). The indie publishing landscape is brutal. You’ve got to play the cards your dealt and maximize your chances of getting a winner.

Truant, Dark, and Bunker are definitely playing for keeps. Props to them. But the thing is, everybody is doing this and it’s saturating the rating system. It’s hard to find anybody saying a bad thing about Truant or Platt’s work in their reviews. Same with Dark and Bunker. Everything is “THIS IS SO AMAZING I HAVE TO USE CAPS LOCK TO EXPRESS MY ENTHUSIASM!”

caps lock

That’s not particularly useful to me when I’m searching for a book to read. I’m guessing it’s not very useful for you either, but hey, maybe I’m wrong.

Typically I find the most value in the three star reviews because that seems to be where people are most even-handed in their praise and critique. But shit, some of the books mentioned above don’t even have a single three star, so I’m left in the lurch on that one.

Why’s this a problem?

Oh, I don’t know. I’m probably making something out of nothing. Ultimately we’re all playing for internet points, so does it really matter? Well, yeah, actually. Careers are on the line, after-all.

But here’s the thing: all those five star reviews don’t make me anymore likely to pick up a book. Especially if they are not balanced by a healthy amount of low stars. Look at that All Time SFF list again. Peruse the reviews and you’ll see a substantial portion of readers absolutely hated said books. Does that make them bad? Not at all.

Here’s something we need to realize: A low rating does not mean a book is bad.

Well, to a degree. If it’s significantly below 3 stars, then maybe it is a bad book. But for the most part, a low rating simply means there is something about the book that is polarizing. And that is a good thing. Knowing what people disliked about the book is beneficial and revealing.

I’ll tell you this, I’ve picked up more books (and loved them!) based off a 2 star review trashing said book, than I ever have by a 5 star gush-fest.

What’s the point of all this? Meh, I’ve lost the thread. You tell me. Get down to the comments and tell me what you think!

54 thoughts on “Why Ratings and Reviews Don’t Matter Anymore! (sort of)

  1. Sooooo… um.

    I think I understand you. You’re saying: Please leave 3 star reviews, because we believe that all five stars are just puffing and they have nothing useful to say about the book. A five star is a non-opinion, it’s someone gushing about it that isn’t willing to honestly consider what’s wrong with the book (and there’s always SOMETHING wrong with the book).

    Is that what you were saying?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Yes. That effectively sums it up in two hundred words or less. Shit, Matt, I should just have you write my blogs from now on. Save me some carpal tunnel.

      Seriously though, I oversimplified a bit and that’s dangerous territory. Not all five star reviews are bad. Hell, I give five star reviews as much as the next guy, but when reviewing books I try to be really aware of my relationship with the author and how that biases me.

      For me–and this scale is different for everybody–a five star book is as close to flawless as it gets. I do think there’s always something to be improved (which lends to notion that there is no such thing as a five star book, but that seems like a waste of a star so I won’t go quite that far).

      But I do believe people are more inclined to give five star reviews to authors they’ve had some sort of personal interaction with. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but on the grand scale I think it’s skewed the efficacy of the ratings.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I think that any reasonable person who uses reviews will consider the source of the review. Gushing reviews with no content? I’ll look at their other reviews to see if that’s normal, or if this is abnormal. If it’s normal, I discount the review as a shill or a reader who wasn’t really interested in helping others decide if this is the book for them.

        As my beautiful wife says, “I don’t even look at the 4 and 5 star reviews. I look at the 3 stars because those people are more inclined to state both the good and the bad, and I want to know what the bad is.” You see that I sorta cribbed her answer in my original reply. 😀

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  2. Honestly, I hadn’t thought about it since I don’t pay much attention to the reviews for finding my next read. I also pre-read/edit for a couple of Indie authors and one who goes through an actual publishing house..
    *Giggle*. I’m old fashioned, I find my next read by reading the author’s description and then looking at the cover artwork. I’ll even *gasp* walk into an actual book store and look at the books, read descriptions and jot down the title so I can order it at a later time.
    I do agree that the stats seem to be a little skewed in favor of Indie authors but I give them that extra portion for being creative enough, and tenacious enough, to do this all themselves.
    I do review what I read, or at least I’m starting to do the reviewing more often.
    I do have a book recommendation for you, if you’re into Sci-Fi. Spider Robinson/Robert Heinlein’s Variable Star. It’s been a while since I’ve read it (since shortly after it was published). I love that book and bought an e-copy just so I could reread it but my to read list keeps getting longer and longer and longer, lol.
    Another way I find books to read is places like freebooksy, Bookbub, the Kobo free books list, etc. They always have great deals (if not totally free). True, they are generally the first in a series, but how else is a new or little known author going to get known if they don’t have some sort of advertising gimic?
    As for Amazon…bah! I would probably use them more if I could get ebooks in more than just the Kindle format *sigh* but I suppose that would defeat the purpose of having dedicated websites, no?

    Liked by 2 people

    • I think for people like us who are deeply immersed in the reading culture, finding the good books is terribly difficult. My reading list is pretty jam-packed and honestly I don’t really look at the reviews/ratings to formulate my own opinion, but I assume those ratings/reviews are informing some sort of reader out there.

      I love Heinlein so I’ll definitely check out Variable Star. Thanks for the recommendation. (This is how I get turned onto most books, by the way)

      Liked by 1 person

      • I actually miss spending hours in a book store, looking, reading and touching but I wouldn’t give up my ereader for anything! I could carry around War and Peace and nobody would know! lol.
        For Variable Star I just happened to be wandering around in the library when I saw Spider Robinson’s name (LOVE the Callahan series except for Off the Wall, that one I still haven’t been able to wade through). When I saw Heinlein’s as well???? It was in my grubby little hands before I even had a chance to think about it.
        Hope you enjoy it when you get a chance to read it.

        Liked by 2 people

  3. Well… I feel damned stupid for leaving you a 5 star review yesterday! I’m going to point out the obvious: If WE didn’t care about the reviews, why would we go through the trouble of editing and publishing? I haaaaate editing. I can’t recall how many times I’ve stared at a computer screen in the wee hours and wanted to rip my face off. If I were writing just for me, and didn’t want people to read it and to hear that it’s “Just the best book that’s ever been written!”, I’d leave it on the desktop and sleep and stuff. I write because I love it. I publish because I want other people to love it. I also like getting paid to sit at home in yoga pants with a GIANT gin and tonic, doing what I love.
    That said, I don’t ask for reviews. I makes me feel skeevy. I want to know that I earned them. I write under two different nom de guerre’s, in two different genres. If you’re a sissy (like me) avoid Historical Romance. A lot of English majors/teachers reading those, it seems. Is catty effing bitches a bit strong? But also some uber lovely folk. Now, in Gay Romance/Erotica, it’s sort of paradise. This review might be a little over the top:
    “Where do I begin? I am totally and absolutely in love, and can honestly say that this is the only author so far where I have read everything written by her and don’t see that changing anytime soon. Shakespeare, Jane Austen and even Agatha Christie (my other fave authors) haven’t come that close. Lane and Aiden were just perfect! I like how the focus of the story is on their relationship without the unnecessary drama and angst – yes things were happening in the background, but it wasn’t contrived and added to their story very well. I liked it very much :)”
    But I have a hard time feeling bad about it. The majority of my reviews in this genre are 5 star. Is there some padding because it’s just an awesome community of readers? Maybe? Does that make them any less precious for me as a writer. Nope. Do I see how the ridiculously high ratings might make some people skeptical? Sure. At the end of the day, it does help sales and it makes me giggle like a five year old when I read them. Sorry. I’m not sorry.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ha, Abigail I absolutely love it when you stop in. Your comments usually make me tinkle a little, so you owe me for this plethora of soiled underoos.

      Anyways, first, I think in my post I might have made it sound as though five star reviews were undeserved, which is absolutely NOT the case. I love five stars, they make me feel warm and fuzzy and squishy and make me want to SQUEEEE (which I don’t because I’m a grown ass man in a coffee shop).

      The point was more that self-published authors have done a fantastic job mobilizing their troops of hardcore fans (people who would fight tooth and nail for the honor of their scribe) and these are the people leaving reviews. I absolutely believe these reviewers enjoyed the books and that they aren’t simply throwing out five star reviews for the hell of it. The problem is that when these people descend en masse, it skews the rating scale in a positive way for the author.

      You should in no way feel bad if you’re on the receiving end of this. You worked hard to get those reviews and you rightly deserve them. But it changes the inherit benefit of the rating system if the only people reviewing are, by and large, the hardcore fans.

      Perhaps my post came off more condemny than I’d intended. More so what I wanted to accomplish was to simply highlight this difference between self-published and traditionally published ratings. I might have missed the mark.

      Can we still do brownies? This seems like a good time to have brownies. Anybody else want in?

      Liked by 1 person

      • We can always do brownies. I don’t have troops, aside from my children. And I wish I had hardcore fans. I don’t think you were at all off the mark. I totally picked up what you were putting down. I’ve seen and been complicit in this very thing. I JUST left a 5 star review for a book that was not great (Ha! It totally wasn’t you!) but I knew he was waiting for it and I didn’t want him to be all sad puppy dog after. I feel dirty. In the bad way, y’all. But, I decided that making a fellow writer happy and being supportive was worth the ding to my “integrity”.
        I just wanted to counter with the whole “We’re kind of whores for recognition” point. If I’m looking for a more “honest” score on a book, I check goodreads. My books settle just above 4 and I feel a little more decent about that.
        Here’s a weird statistic I kind of made up, but didn’t. Among my m/f romance readers, the return on reviews versus downloads is about 1%. For my m/m “romance”, it’s like .5%. I’m not sure why. And most of my m/m readers are women. I’ve had about 14,000 downloads of my books (both genres) and I have a total of 61 reviews on Amazon. Do not call me on the math. These numbers are way more than my fingers and toes. I’m a writer. Not a physicist.
        As far as your underoos… Kinky. You’re my secret boyfriend.

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      • Ugh, I’ve been in that position between being fully honest or being professionally supportive. It’s the worst. There is no winning. Typically i err on the side of professionally supportive (and this is entirely self-serving) because I have more to gain from happy professional connections than I do from brutally honest reviews. Is that wrong? Ehh, its not entirely “right”, but it’s the nature of the beast.

        You get right the hell out of here with your maths. Nobody wants that. Shoo! Take your numbers and go!

        Okay, fine. You can stay, but only ’cause I like ya.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. I think you are mainly right, though there are some self-published authors like me who don’t ask all our friends and family members to write up reviews for us. My book The Shard was published in early March and only has two reviews! I think your review of my first book was an honest one, as I didn’t know you at all until I saw that review. If you wanted to post it on Amazon and give me less than five stars, I’d be quite content with that. 🙂

    Liked by 3 people

    • Nope, I stand by my rating, Ted. I believe for a first time novel, The Immortality Game is 5 stars. The *first time novel* caveat is a small, but important one, but I wouldn’t take a single star away from your book!

      I’m in that same boat about trying not to ask friend and family members for reviews.

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      • You’re too kind. I struggled for a while about the reviews I gave to indie books versus trade published books. The best indie books can’t quite match the best trade books (and I certainly include mine in that) because we just don’t get that added layer of professional polish. So for some time I tried to rate both the same way, only to eventually feel I was being unfair. So now I do rate indie books a tad more leniently than trade ones. I still don’t know if it’s right or wrong, but I felt wrong doing it the other way, and I only feel mildly wrong doing it this way now. I don’t think I can be perfectly satisfied with ratings when we have so many indie books these days.

        Liked by 2 people

      • I absolutely agree. Whether you grade too leniently or too harshly you end up feeling slightly weird about the whole thing. Whether right or wrong, I try and take each book and review it in light of its circumstances. So if it’s an authors first book, I’m more lenient. If it’s their 32nd book this month, I’ll be a bit harsher.

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  5. That’s a HUGE point, Ted! I’d eat a litter of kittens for some “professional polish”. As I said, editing is the worst. And then, you go back and read your book after it’s published and you find an error and you want to just bleed all over the whole damned world. Most of the complaints I’ve received have been about grammar errors. I think some of it is to with writing “style” and the rest is me not knowing what to do with colons.
    I also equate indie publishing with the “Support Local Businesses” movement. I love the democratization indie publishing has brought about. It’s made it so much easier for readers to find a book that satisfies whatever they’re into. If giving indie writers a little padding keeps them selling and writing, it ultimately benefits the reader. Even if the reader has to suffer through a shit read now and then.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I like that analogy of supporting local business. It’s so true. You don’t always get the high end product you’re looking for, but you get good service (ie: personal interaction) and a good (sometimes even fantastic) product.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. It is true that the connection you have with readers helps to inspire those readers to write reviews, but a large majority of my social network followers are actually quite shy about the review system. However, they know I’m an indie author and there is a greater awareness and support for indie authors than there once was when I first started in 2011. Readers fall in love with characters or a series and want those books to continue; they want to be there to show support for someone who isn’t on every store shelf.

    It would be more realistic to compare me to a midlister who is traditionally published since Rowling and Collins have reached a larger following of people because of the love for the movies.

    Does my average mean *you* will like it or that guy who is shopping for books by Stephen King? Probably, most definitely not. But for someone who reads my genre and enjoys the themes I write about, it just might be. I do my best to write stories that connect with my target audience, creating twists and leaving clues to inspire re-reads. An author can only hope that readers will be excited enough to not just write reviews, but to recommend your books to friends and family. Also something to consider is rating averages tend to increase with each book in a series as people will drop off and devoted fans hang on. Reviews still matter. I don’t know if the review average matters as much as the actual reviews. People to tend to read them and find out if this is a story they can connect with. But yes, some readers are influenced by the average and want to feel the same love for a book that others seem to. Some are just influenced by the cover. 😉

    Someone above mentioned the professional polish, and you absolutely can get that as an indie. My editor edits well-known authors/publishers and I hire two proofreaders in addition to the additional steps I take. I’ve seen traditionally published books less polished than some indie books I’ve read. It will cost more out of pocket to get it as clean as possible, but it’s a worthwhile investment. As an aside, I don’t write YA. My books are urban fantasy romance and paranormal romance, which are adult reads and not appropriate for kids, so keep them far away! 🙂

    Liked by 4 people

    • Hi Dannika! Thanks for stopping by, my jaw is sort of on the ground that you actually stopped by. In the Indie world you’re…big, so it’s pretty cool that you would take the time to add your voice to the conversation.

      First, public announcement and apologizing time: I went to your website and perused your About Me and it says this:

      I am not a YA author (I feel like I have to state this because some think the Mageri covers look YA. I don’t), but I think it’s wonderful there are so many books available to teens in Urban Fantasy and Paranormal.

      I was lazy and skimming the page and my eyes hit on YA and didn’t bother reading into the context. That’s my laziness and I’m sorry. But hey, atleast you get to watch me extricate my foot from my mouth.

      Right-o, so keep Dannika’s books away from kiddos. Which negates the comparison I was making between your books and Rowling or Collins, but doesn’t change the fact that your average rating is staggeringly good. And rightfully so. Obviously I haven’t read your books, but the branding is on point, the covers are professional, and I imagine the writing is excellent–there is no short changing those things.

      I actually think it’s pretty cool that Indie writers have the ability to mobilize their fans in this way. It’s gone a long ways towards evening out the playing field with the traddies.

      Also, I agree with Danika, it is totally possible to get that professional polish–but it’s going to cost you. Most self-publishers don’t have the budget for that sort of gloss and shine, but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible. You’ll notice though with all those self-pubbies I mentioned above, each of them have obviously gone deep into the pockets to put forth the absolute best product. Ted is a good example with his Immortality Game cover.

      Thanks again for stopping in, Dannika. It was awesome hearing your perspective!

      Liked by 1 person

      • For me it’s less about the cost and more about the ability to know you are getting a truly professional editor. At the big publishers you are pretty sure to get a pro. In the indie world there are so many ‘editors’ offering their services that you simply can’t know. I read a lot of indie books that list editors but are actually terribly edited. I don’t mind spending money on a top-flight editor, but I don’t want to waste money on a mediocre or even bad one.

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      • Actually Ted look at the other Indies in your genre who have polish then:

        1. Check their books to see if they mention their editor

        2. Check their website – a number of indies include links to their editor on their website

        3. If those don’t work drop a note to the author asking for editor recommendations – most are happy to help another indie out

        The same goes for cover artist.

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    • Right there, the part where you said “My editor edits…and I hire two proofreaders…” that’s Indy gold right there. I’m almost to the point of publishing a rant for all indy authors everywhere. Just because you don’t have a publishing house does not mean you can skip the polishing steps on your novel. Gah! No wonder people can’t give their stuff away. I see good authors, prolific ones, who desperately need proofreaders.

      That’s a job I could do. Send me your manuscripts. Proofreader for hire. 😀

      I’m sorry that I just seized on a pet peeve and ran away in the thread. I’ll go sit over there and consider how I can be a better reader.

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  7. Ok first of all, you sure did a lot of research! Impressive.

    Secondly, I totally get what you are saying. As a reviewer, I do feel that pressure. That is why over time I have come to request more books from Netgalley than directly from the authors. The anonimity really helps not feeling pressured into giving an above than usual rating, even if the author says it’s fine. They’re people, with feelings. Of course they will be upset, no matter what they say. I don’t want to be the cause of someone being upset. So, yes. Netgalley. No humans there *eyeroll*

    As for ratings, I tend to not pay much mind to them. I care more about the reviews. A 5 star rating with a review of ‘Oh my gosh this book is completely life changing, get it right now!!!’ is a major turn off for me, not to mention that it has the opposite effect on my willingness to get it. It is an obvious indicator of what you mentioned. Unfortunately, some self-published authors do get their ‘friends’ to rate 5 stars and write that sort of review, some more subtly than others – I am sure plenty even guilt them into it – so, again, the reviews matter to me a lot more.

    If I am spending money on a book, I will look for reviews where the person actually explains what they liked and what they did not like in a book. If I find stuff there in common with the things I usually dislike, then I probably won’t get it, even if I find the premise appealing. It is hard to find a good review, though. A lot of them are basically a summary of what happens in the book. There isn’t much insight to character/plot/world development, why it was good or bad. I have found that blog reviews are, in general, a lot more sincere than GoodReads or Amazon ones so I gravitate towards those a lot more.

    So yeah, those are my thoughts on the subject.

    That and… Now I really want to know why you respond to Buttercup.

    Pretty please? *blinks eyes sweetly*

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Do you honestly think that an author like Dannika Dark (of which I am a huge fan) has enough time in the day to reach out to several tens of thousands of readers to beg them to leave her a 5 star review on her books?

    I’m sorry but that’s just really dumb. Maybe she has a high rating because her books are just that good. Pretty simple when you think about it.

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  9. I imagine Dannika has the same amount of time in the day as the rest of us, but she probably knows how to use it like a multi-tasking boss.

    As I’ve already admitted, I know little about the inner workings of the Dannika empire, but on her website she has a newsletter sign-up, and I would assume a newsletter signup at the back of each of her books, and I’m gonna go out on a limb here and continue guessing that she sends out an email to all her followers notifying them of her new releases. Does she ask her readers to leave reviews? Maybe, I’m not sure. But the point is those fans, who adore her work and therefore signed up to her newsletter, are very likely to go out of their way to support her by leaving a review. It’s not an absurd exchange.

    I agree, her books probably are amazing (dreck doesn’t typically sell well), but that doesn’t change my original point which was that successful self-pubbies, on average, seem to have higher ratings than their traditionally published peers. It’s an interesting anomaly and one I wanted to draw attention to. If any of my self-pubbed brethren interpret that as me hating on them, I am deeply, and truly, apologetic.

    Thanks for taking the time to comment, Summer! What’s your favorite Dannika book, by the way?

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    • As someone who reads Dannika this is what I can remember off the top of my head (this is true for a number of indies I read):

      1. Back of book mentions reviews are important for an author whether positive or negative so it’d be great if you’d leave one on retailer sites and/or Goodreads (paraphrasing); lists of books published by series; links to website and social media; how to sign up for newsletter; I forget if she includes bits from other books (most of what I’m mentioning here are done by what I’d call mid-list & bestselling indies); I’ve seen a few indies offer a free book (or short story) if I email then a link to my review(s) of the book I’m reading (Dannika doesn’t do this). Note the request for reviews states both positive & NEGATIVE.

      2. Newsletters – includes latest book realeased, upcoming book, some trivia, sometimes a contest, I forget if she lets us know when arcs are available on Netgally (some indies do), list of books in reading order available, I don’t remember if her newsletter reminds us how reviews are helpful (some indies do), sometimes snippets, appearances, the style of the newsletter is both conversational/personal while business like, always upbeat

      3. She does use Netgalley for at least some of her releases

      4. Her books fill a niche. Are well written, polished, branded, IMHO – I read between 150-300 books a year eclectic/multiple genre

      I do think trad publishing could learn a few things from indies. Both text from back of books and newsletters. The back of the book would be done by the publisher. The newsletters would be done by authors. The difference I’ve found between well done newsletters and others are the ones by Dannika and Shannon Mayer I feel like I’m a treasured reader & even part of a team versus getting a “buy my book” sales letter where I feel I’m getting advertising (ones I get now from several trad publishers – heck if they added behind the scenes & tried to build a relationship instead of focusing on marketing it might help)

      Liked by 1 person

      • Tasha, this is perfect! Thank you so much for taking the time to chime in. Everything you mentioned is word for word what I would expect from an uber-star like Dannika.

        One of the important things to draw attention to here is the fact that Dannika does ask in the back of her book for reviews (whether good or bad) which I’m pretty sure is exactly the same thing that every mildly successful indie publisher does, but which I have never seen in the back of a traditionally published book. The difference is subtle, but the effect is enormous. Simply asking for a review goes a looooong way. Traditional publishers seem to assume readers know and therefore will follow through. This is something that self-publishers do a great job of.
        The other thing self-pubbers do really well is finding their niche and then working their magic. This creates super dedicated fan bases such as yourself for authors like Dannika. Awesome!

        Liked by 1 person

      • I think the increased number of reviews has a lot to do with the suggestion just as you’ve finished the book. Whether you love or hate it your told “tell people what you think IT MATTERS”. Depending on how your reading the book right after you read that:

        1. Kindle Paperwhite – window pops up asking you to rate the book & either buy or open next book as well as lists other books by author

        2. Kindle app on iPad – window pops up asking you to rate & Review book – I just upgraded my software so I’m not sure how the buy/open options work there.

        With a trad published author before I was more involved with publishing I assumed they made a living writing (LOL) and didn’t need my review. From day one indie authors told me how important reviews were to them (little fish). After being more involved with publishing I now know reviews and recommendations matter to most authors & only a few manage to live off their writing income. I also know how easy it is to go from making a living at it to “back to a non-writing job to pay the bills” with friends both trad and indie having had this happen to them.

        Ratings and reviews are important. I’m not sure trad publishers have made the transition yet to “regular reader reviews count”. From my Netgalley experience they are still working on what blogs are “real review blogs” and “how many followers” count to make you an influencer.

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  10. Oh, also, I hope I didn’t imply that any of these authors are begging their readers to leave 5 star reviews. That’s unethical and I’m pretty sure that’s not what’s happening.

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  11. Interesting. I’d never have thought to look at the data that way. I think a lot of the conclusions you came to are correct—indie authors tend to be far more involved with their fans, and as a result their fans tend to be a bit more involved in the process as well, as compared to the average reader who picks up a book and whether or not they enjoyed it likely doesn’t think more on it.

    But there’s probably a balancing factor in there too. The more popular and indie author becomes, the more likely they are to draw in a wider net of readers who will leave reviews, and over time that’ll probably lead to more low reviews drawing the average down towards a level on par with traditional publishers. Again, you nailed the point that indie stuff tends to be razor-focused, aimed right at a select group that tends to propagate within itself, while the more widely-spread traditional publishing tends to hit a wide range, so broader opinion factors into it.

    That said, there’s a few interesting things I’ve noticed over the years concerning Amazon reviews. One is similar to what you’ve said, in that you don’t find five-star reviews to be as useful as three-star reviews, and I’ve heard similar statements voiced elsewhere. However, I’ve also had people tell me that they won’t read a book at all if it has a rating above 4 stars on Amazon, usually for reasons similar to “no book can be that good.” I find that one worrying, because that puts the books that are rated highly into the same boat as those that are rated poorly—the boat that doesn’t get read. Which ultimately hurts because that leads to a book that is good sticking only with that small, select group of fans, meaning that the only reviews are good, and if you don’t trust the good reviews, well … what’s left. All books at three-stars? That’s not a rating at that point, it’s a leveling field.

    The other thing is that there’s a fine line between a helpful review and an unhelpful review. “Book is good, has gret action” as a five-star review really doesn’t help much except in the final aggregation of review rankings. A reader who looks at it, on the other hand, might walk (click) away. A well written review, even if it’s only a few sentences, I find far more helpful than a single line or sentence (and personally, when I am looking at a book to buy, I tend to check the highest-rated for “helpful” reviews and those around them on top, middle, and sometimes bottoms scale, just to get a good range).

    There are two other things that make this tricky. One was mentioned in a comment above, where, for indie authors, there is the stigma that all of the good reviews either come from the author, their family, or their close friends. Which, regardless of it being true for each author or not, tends to be a connotation indie authors deal with. During face-to-face conversation I’ve had people, upon asking after my books and what rating they have, look me right in the face and ask “Well how many of those came from your family and friends?” And at that point I’ve found it doesn’t matter if I say “None of them” or “All of them” (the latter is definitely not true in my case, just a disclaimer/plug). The bridge is already burned. Indie authors face a review stigma for it because, well, we know it has happened somewhere.

    But there’s one other thing that ruins things for everyone. And before I mention it, I am going to say right out, just in case anyone takes this wrong: I am not saying any of the authors you mentioned here have done this particular tactic. I don’t believe they have. Others, smaller, gunning-for-cash-with-lower-standards authors, however, have.

    Buying reviews. It’s low, it’s dirty, and it’s also cheap. Amazon is currently involved in litigation with some places that do it, but … It’s like trying to stamp out piracy. A news article on Ars Technica about it had a screenshot from one of the places that did it. $220 will get you 10 five-star reviews, all slightly tweaked to be individualized. Higher numbers of reviews cost cheaper bulk rates. For a little under the cost of what it’s going to take to get my next novel edited, I could purchase 100 five-star reviews, along with a smattering of lower ratings, all spaced out over random intervals to make them all look authentic.

    Yikes.

    That’s just scary. And it completely breaks the Amazon review system as far as aggregation goes, and lends some weight to the whole “noting over four-stars can be good” stance I’ve heard.

    Wow … that got kind of long. Usually I’m asleep by now.

    Anyway, I enjoyed reading through this and looking at the difference you presented. If I could make a request, I’d find it really fascinating if you could dig back and do a comparison with indie authors that have exploded into the mainstream big-time (like Hugh Howey) and see if there would be some way to track how their ratings changed after their explosion in publicity. It might add some interesting angles to look at.

    Anyway, thanks for the read. Gotta sleep now.

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    • Jeepers, Max, that was a great comment through and through. So many tasty morsels, I don’t know where to begin. You definitely hit the nail on the head in terms of picking up what I was putting down–which is good, ’cause I think I might have been a little unclear so to paraphrase what you said, “indie stuff tends to be razor-focused, aimed right at a select group that tends to propagate within itself, while the more widely-spread traditional publishing tends to hit a wide range, so broader opinion factors into it.” This is precisely the point I was trying to get across and you did it in one sentence. You win. Jerk.

      I am a nerd for random statistics and would love, love, love to get my hands on Howey’s numbers before and after. I’ll throw out some feelers and see what we can drudge up because that would be a really amazing perspective on the effects of Self-Published vs Traditional.

      I actually don’t have very many real life reader friends so I rarely get to talk about this stuff in person, but I’ve yet to hear that objection to reading anything with over 4 stars. I totally get the reasons behind it, but it seems like eventually you’d just be reading less than average stuff. That sucks all around.

      People are brash when it comes to asking questions that could potentially maim our souls. “How many of those reviews are friends and family?” is one of those questions that could kill the heartsoul of a lesser person. (I don’t know what a heartsoul is, but I figure it’s important.) You’re absolutely correct about the very real stigma surrounding self-published works. And, unfortunately, fair or not, when I see a self-published book with 100 five star reviews, it makes me suspicious. Which feeds into other point about sock puppet accounts and paid reviews. That’s absolutely despicable on all fronts. If you buy reviews, you’re cheating and you should fee bad. End of story.

      Ultimately it comes down to what you said about the quality of the review. Whether you leave a 3 star or a 5 star, the quality of what you say matters more. Like I mentioned in the post, I’ve picked up books off the recommendation of a 2 star review. It was well thought out and critical and made the book sound like something I would absolutely enjoy (even if the critiquer did not).

      Max, thanks for the long reply! That was great fun.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Glad I could add something to the discussion and bring some new stuff to the discussion! Thanks for the reply in turn!

        As far as not reading stuff over 4 stars, I still find it boggling myself. I’ve tossed the “What about all the good stuff you miss?” question at the, and gotten responses that basically sum up as “Better ordinary than running a risk of terrible.” It’s still a weird mentality, and I do my best to make a case against it when I see it. And not just because that’s a possible sale on one of my own works.

        Paid reviews though … there’s really only one cure, and that’s encouraging people to play fair and hoping they do. Which can be hard to do, especially when some just see it as a “fair game edge” they can use (though I’d dispute the fair part, obviously). But past self-policing and having a bit of honor, there’s not much that can be done to stop it, at least not at the moment. I worry that the indie book scene might be setting itself up for a bit of a bubble sometimes, something akin to what the mobile phone game market went into. Too many individuals jumping in with “copycat” stuff—churning out cheap stories with no editing and then abusing review purchases to buy their way to the top, only to launch under another name and account when the prior one tanks. I can’t say it’s happened to that degree yet, I don’t keep a close enough eye on things, though it wouldn’t surprise me with the ease of digital publishing. The end result is that some rotten eggs ruin it for everyone else and some overall public perception damage to ebook markets.

        Small time cons exist already—there have been cases of fanfiction and real fiction both put up for sale on various ebook stores and pushed until they get pulled, and the perpetrators just run to grab something else … but I’ll be honest, that’s another topic that’s only tangentially related to the one at hand.

        Still, despite those two, I don’t think either of them are going to really hurt the indie or ebook market, but they do bloody it a little, and that makes it much harder for those out there trying to break in to get the break they need.

        As far as soul-maiming questions, that one’s actually pretty tame compared to some of the stuff I’ve been told online or in person. People can be pretty rotten, even unintentionally, but then that’s life. Just gotta roll with what comes.

        Liked by 1 person

  12. An interesting article, but I think you may be missing an important component. You’re comparing books solely on their average ratings. Which do you think would be a better book in the following case:

    Independent Self Published Book – 10 reviews, average rating 4.5
    Random Heinlein Book – 20,000 reviews, average rating 4.5

    It’s certainly possible that both books are of equal quality, but the sample sizes suggest to me that the Heinlein clearly (at this point; ISPB might end up with as many reviews at some point and then the comparison would be more valid) is a better book. Put another way, you have to look at the sample size and the distribution of the votes, rather than just the mean score, in order to make a valid comparison. The obvious fallacy would be if ISPB only had one vote with a rating of 4.5.

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    • You’re absolutely correct. Noelle raises the same question of sample size and what sort of significance they carry. I meant to get deeper into this in the post but I lost steam and figured there was enough on the plate for one day.

      The self-published duo of Sean Platt and Johnny B. Truant are pulling up the caboose with the lease significant sample size. They consistently have less than a hundred reviews, but always more than 30, with most of them settling in the 80 range. Not particularly significant when taken in comparison with Ender’s Game or Dune. But it does give us a launching off point, and for the *tiny* niche they are trying to carve out for themselves, those numbers are not entirely insignificant. Within context of the greater SFF world, though, you’re right, not significant.

      I pulled in Dannika because all her books had more than 300 reviews with most settling around 600-800 so I figured that would give a more accurate picture. Is it in the same realm as Rowling and Collins? Nah, not even close. But her numbers line up really well with all the past Hugo winners and the numbers of reviews they’ve pulled in. Now this is where it gets murky, mostly on account of the fact that we are comparing across genre lines–Dannika being urban fantasy with a romance angle–so the numbers lose a bit of their oomph.

      The point, however, is that the reader probably isn’t going to pay too much attention to the ratings after a certain threshold. Whether it’s 300 five star reviews or 3,000, they lose interest at a certain point and just say…”Fuck, that’s a lot of 5 stars. Must be good.” Atleast, that’s one interpretation of what a reader might do. Another is that the reader just doesn’t care. A lot of the comments I’ve seen so far have been along those same lines so it’s all a bit of a wishy-washy who cares? problem.

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  13. Wow, Anthony, this post generated a lot of conversation! I think you hit a nerve. I had to learn about statistics early in my science career, and always pay attention to the N (number of people reviewing). You can’t compare a rating generated by less than ten people with those with an N of 100 or more. If I’m selecting a book without information from friends whose opinions I value, I actually read the reviews – especially ones with lower ratings. My opinion is those ring more true than the gushers. Having said that, I’m hoping the N on my new book increases!

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    • Yeah, I talked about the sample size problem in another comment, but you’re correct: It does make for dubious comparisons.

      With that said, I too would take an increase in my N size. Always chasing the N. 🙂

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  14. In your list of “Top 12 SF titles”, you have “Storm Troopers” when I’m pretty damn sure you mean “Starship Troopers”. Also, “The Lathe of Heaven”? And not “The Left Hand of Darkness”? wtf?

    But as a fellow connoisseur of statistics, yes, you are right on the mark. These days, I find amazon reviews pretty much useless for fiction. For non-fiction they can be helpful, especially if they include info about stuff the book left out or did particularly well. But for fiction, especially indie and self-published stuff, I’m back to word-of-mouth (word-of-trusted-blog).

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    • Ha, Storm Troopers would be an entirely different franchise! Whoops! I do the same thing with Spiderman and Superman all the time. I’m slow to learn.

      I settled for Lathe of Heaven instead of Left Hand of Darkness only because when I was searching through Ursula’s Amazon account yesterday they only had weird compendium editions of Left Hand of Darkness appearing in the search bar. I’ve since found it, but LOD and LOH have very nearly the same rating so it doesn’t change much,

      Interestingly, Starship Troopers and LOD were actually number 14 and 16 on the list I read, but I cheated and moved them forward because I thought Heinlein deserved a better showing than just Stranger in a Strange Land which had the lowest rating of the bunch with a 4.0, and I thought it bullshit that there were no women in the top 10, so Ursula got the assist.

      You’ve got a keen eye for detail. Very impressive!

      I like the distinction between fiction and non-fiction. I’d yet to consider how the ratings/reviews would influence my perception of those works.

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  15. I really really appreciate this. As an indie author, I’ve always been frustrated at all of the 4-star reviews I seem to get, but now that I think about it, those are the ones that give the best criticism of the book. I’m guessing that’s what new readers would want to hear.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Exactly. Be heartened for you are not alone. It can be frustrating getting 3, or even a 4, star ’cause we see that 5 and think, “Well what the hell. It’s good, why not 5? Gah, I suck!” Those are the leaps our brains make because our brains secretly hate us.

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